Chi Parla Inglese

otiv4242

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Hello,

Is there someone that can help me in English? I have some questions on some legal wording and understanding who pays la "ritenuta fiscale" sui buoni fruttiferi postali.

Thank-you
Vito (from Toronto Canada). I am a non-Italian citizen and non-Italian resident.

P.S., posso provare di spiegarmi, cioe farla domanda in Italiane pero non sono perfetto con la lingua Italiane.
 

otiv4242

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ok, it's about what it says below.

In base all’art. 6 del richiamato decreto legislativo, ai soggetti non residenti in Italia, ricorrendo le condizioni di legge, non si applica il prelievo fiscale.


So, I cashed in 4 buoni fruttiferi postali a termine and there was a ritenuta fiscal of 64.56 euros each one and they insisted I pay. I said I am non resident so I should not have to pay but they said it only applies if I was an Italian citizen and a non-resident. However, I do not see anywhere any wording to the effect where it says I have to be an Italian citizen. In fact I have found 3 different documents worded where it only says non-resident of Italy, see below

1st. way) --------> Ed inoltre, per chi non è residente in Italia, se ricorrono le condizioni di legge, non si applica il prelievo fiscale.

2nd. way)--------> Mentre per i non residenti in Italia, se ricorrono le condizioni previsti dalla legge, non viene applicato questo prelievo fiscale.

3rd. way)---------> In base all’art. 6 del richiamato decreto legislativo, ai soggetti non residenti in Italia, ricorrendo le condizioni di legge, non si applica il prelievo fiscale.

Anyways, were they correct in charging me the ritenuta fiscal? What can I do about this?

Thank you
Vito

ps nice avatar picture Frank.
 

FrankB

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Who's "they" ?

I suspect you may be right, but you should also check the tax treaty. Sometimes, bilateral agreements supersede the general law.

If you are right, the way to get your money back is to send a request to
Agenzia delle Entrate
Centro Operativo di Pescara
Via Rio Sparto 21
65100
Pescara (PE)

Tell them you are non resident and it helps a lot if you enclose an official certificate that names you as tax resident of Canada for the year in which you cashed your BFP.
In the USA it is Form 6166; check with Her Canadian Majesty Tax Authority.
Enclose evidence of the withholding as well.

Also list in the letter your bank info, where you want your credit deposited.
Even if you have an Italian account, use a foreign one to avoid problems.
Et voila', within 12/24 months you should get your money back!

"my avatar" ?? I don't understand; took that pic on the mirror last week.
 

Nicola Santilli

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Are you sure they charged you 64.56 euros for each security as interest withholding tax?

Maybe the charge was related to the stamp duty on securities deposit accounts, which also affects Buoni Fruttiferi Postali since 2012.

In fact the stamp duty tax is a wealth tax based on securities market value (0,10% in 2012 and 0,15% since 2013) and due to the source-based taxation principle it is charged despite foreign tax residence status.
 
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fra80

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Hello,

P.S., posso provare di spiegarmi, cioe farla domanda in Italiane pero non sono perfetto con la lingua Italiane.


every time I read something in English I wonder if I did well to make the high school Classico,(only 1 hour per week:wall:) the grammar is correct?
the Italian language is very difficult to learn but you're on the right track OK!
you have already exceeded the level of many Italian:D
 

claudia_b

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Are you sure they charged you 64.56 euros for each security as interest withholding tax?

Maybe the charge was related to the stamp duty on securities deposit accounts, which also affects Buoni Fruttiferi Postali since 2012.

In fact the stamp duty tax is a wealth tax based on securities market value (0,10% in 2012 and 0,15% since 2013) and due to the source-based taxation principle it is charged despite foreign tax residence status.

Per un attimo avevo avuto anch'io il sospetto che potesse trattarsi di imposta di bollo, ma qui si parla di buoni a termine, quindi emessi fino al 2002, sui quali il minimo applicato non è 34,20, ma 1,81.
E' abbastanza improbabile che una dozzina di anni fa si sottoscrivessero singoli buoni di taglio tanto alto da giustificare un bollo di 64,56 euro

E' suggestivo, invece, che 64,56 euro sia il 12,5% di 516,46, il vecchio milione di lire. Potrebbe trattarsi di buoni che raddoppiavano il capitale a scadenza, del taglio di un milione ciascuno.
 

otiv4242

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Thank you for all your help Frank B. "They" is/are the employee(s) behind the counter at the poste Italiane outlet where I cashed my bonds. Man, they can be rude, lol!!

The avatar looks so much like Christian Bale when he was in "American Psycho"

HI Nicola Santilli-----> Oh yes I'm sure, they were BFP's a termine from 1992 and expired in 2003 and almost fell in prescrizione if I would've waited any longer (September 7 2013). Thank God I remembered I had them. Purtroppo io ho perso dieci anni di fruttuoisita per sfortuna.

Yes, claudia_B ------> you're correct 12.5% on 1.000.000,00 lire in interest (i,.e, 516,46 euros). They were 4 bonds each 500.000 lire originally and they doubled in 11 years (7yrs 500.000 and then 4 years another 500.000).

Thank-you fra80 per le belle parole che mi hanno fatto sentire sollevato perche penso che il mio Italiane fa schifo and Verdemare grazie per vostro aiuto.
 
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FrankB

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Thank you for all your help Frank B. "They" is/are the employee(s) behind the counter at the poste Italiane outlet where I cashed my bonds. Man, they can be rude, lol!!
Keep in mind that for them it is much easier to collect the tax and let you deal with the refund, than running the risk of not charging and it turns out they should have.


The avatar looks so much like Christian Bale when he was in "American Psycho"
Sshhh!! I'm here incognito!


My secretary is from Hamilton. She grew up with lots of Canadians with an Italian name :)
 

Nicola Santilli

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Thank you for all your help Frank B. "They" is/are the employee(s) behind the counter at the poste Italiane outlet where I cashed my bonds. Man, they can be rude, lol!!

The avatar looks so much like Christian Bale when he was in "American Psycho"

HI Nicola Santilli-----> Oh yes I'm sure, they were BFP's a termine from 1992 and expired in 2003 and almost fell in prescrizione if I would've waited any longer (September 7 2013). Thank God I remembered I had them. Purtroppo io ho perso dieci anni di fruttuoisita per sfortuna.

Yes, claudia_B ------> you're correct 12.5% on 1.000.000,00 lire in interest (i,.e, 516,46 euros). They were 4 bonds each 500.000 lire originally and they doubled in 11 years (7yrs 500.000 and then 4 years another 500.000).

Thank-you fra80 per le belle parole che mi hanno fatto sentire sollevato perche penso che il mio Italiane fa schifo and Verdemare grazie per vostro aiuto.

So after ascertaining, thanks even to claudia_b's clever deduction, that the charge was because of interest withholding tax and assessed that it shouldn't have been happened we can investigate about the matter and the applicable law.

According to art. 6 Decreto Legislativo 1 aprile 1996, n. 239 rule, as you are tax resident in Canada, which is a country in the white list, you shouldn't have been charged for interest withholding tax if you properly delivered the self-certification, required by art. 7 to get exempted from interest revenue and capital gain taxes, to the branch.

Excluding an error on Poste Italiane's side (but we can't say it without a full view of the situation), if you were charged it means you didn't deliver the certification and now two different hypothetical solutions can be envisaged:

a) trying to apply for a tax refund that should be delivered to the territorially competent Agenzia delle Entrate of the town where the income was produced (that seems to be your case) or of the town of last residence if you were Italian resident and then moved to a blacklisted country but that could be denied because the wording of the law says that the absence of certification means the charging of interest substitute tax;

b) detracting the Italian interest withholding tax from the Canadian tax but it could become problematic because you shouldn't have been subjected to the Italian tax jurisdiction. Check with your Canadian tax consultant or Tax Authority, describing all the details, if you are allowed to detract the Italian tax even though you weren't Italian tax resident and shouldn't have been charged.
 
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FrankB

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Excluding an error on Poste Italiane's side (but we can't say it without a full view of the situation), if you were charged it means you didn't deliver the certification and now two different hypothetical solutions can be envisaged:

a) trying to apply for a tax refund that should be delivered to the territorially competent Agenzia delle Entrate of the town where the income was produced (that seems to be your case) or of the town of last residence if you were Italian resident and then moved to a blacklisted country but that could be denied because the wording of the law says that the absence of certification means the charging of interest substitute tax;

b) detracting the Italian interest withholding tax from the Canadian tax but it could become problematic because you shouldn't have been subjected to the Italian tax jurisdiction. Check with your Canadian tax consultant or Tax Authority, describing all the details, if you are allowed to detract the Italian tax even though you weren't Italian tax resident and shouldn't have been charged.

Been there, done that.
The territorially competent AdE office is Pescara for all foreign residents.
At least as the US are concerned, and I imagine Canada would have similar regulations, only legally due taxes can be deducted.

Sometimes trying to present proper certification to the paying agent and invoking AdE's own regulations according to which you are exempt from withholding, elicits the reply "Guaglio! Se dobbiamo fare tutta quest'ammuina ci vorranno 2 settimane per pagarti" ("Dude! If we have to go through all this extra paperwork, it will take us another 2 weeks before we can pay you")
You don't have all that time to spare so cash in and then apply for a refund.
 

Nicola Santilli

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Been there, done that.
The territorially competent AdE office is Pescara for all foreign residents.
At least as the US are concerned, and I imagine Canada would have similar regulations, only legally due taxes can be deducted.

Sometimes trying to present proper certification to the paying agent and invoking AdE's own regulations according to which you are exempt from withholding, elicits the reply "Guaglio! Se dobbiamo fare tutta quest'ammuina ci vorranno 2 settimane per pagarti" ("Dude! If we have to go through all this extra paperwork, it will take us another 2 weeks before we can pay you")
You don't have all that time to spare so cash in and then apply for a refund.

As far I know the application for tax refund must be addressed to the territorially competent Agenzia delle Entrate determined, for non residents, by the criteria I already explained.

I think that the Pescara's office was kind, unless obliged to do so, to forward your application to the territorially competent office.

About the "legally due taxes" I don't think that the substitute tax charged in absence of the certification could be necessarily classified as "undue".

For this reason I would not recommend, in the case of significant amounts or if it is possible to wait, to cash the amount net of taxes and then apply for a refund.

This is because a restrictive interpretation would preclude the detraction of the Italian withholding tax from Canadian taxes and the refund from Agenzia delle Entrate would be unsure.

I don't doubt that it worked for you but unfortunately interpretations could change and personally I wouldn't take any unnecessary risk.

Sometimes the time-wasting extra paperwork is very useful to avoid higher costs.
 

FrankB

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As far I know the application for tax refund must be addressed to the territorially competent Agenzia delle Entrate determined, for non residents, by the criteria I already explained.

I think that the Pescara's office was kind, unless obliged to do so, to forward your application to the territorially competent office.

Look for yourself

About the "legally due taxes" I don't think that the substitute tax charged in absence of the certification could be necessarily classified as "undue".
The rationale is that the foreign state doesn't want to lose revenue. Instead they ask you to get a refund from the other state for taxes not due.
Otherwise, where would it end ? Can I pay 1 million to AdE just because and then ask the US to write those taxes off my bill ?
 

Nicola Santilli

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Thank you for the information, I just looked at the standard tax refund page saying that competence is determined by "domicilio fiscale", which is the town where the income is produced or the last Italian residence town if ex-resident and then moved to a blacklisted country.

Good to know that foreign people can address their applications to an unique office.

The rationale is that the foreign state doesn't want to lose revenue. Instead they ask you to get a refund from the other state for taxes not due.
Otherwise, where would it end ? Can I pay 1 million to AdE just because and then ask the US to write those taxes off my bill ?

Yes, of course as I already told it is almost probable to meet difficulties with the foreign state's tax authority but, on the other side, it can happen even with the Italian one for the same reasons.

I hope you can agree that the safest solution is to fill the certification and deliver it to the branch before cashing the gross amount and then paying taxes in the tax residence country.
 
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FrankB

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I hope you can agree that the safest solution is to fill the certification, cash the gross amount and then pay taxes in the tax residence country.

Totally.
My point is that, especially when dealing with someone who doesn't have much experience with foreign payees, there could be lots of obstacles to have the withholding removed.
This because the employee has everything to lose if he's wrong and nothing to gain if he's right.
Just imagine that they may not speak another language, wouldn't have any idea of what sort of certification verifies foreign status, etc.

In fact, the law says "i sostituti d’imposta hanno la facoltà, sotto la propria responsabilità, di applicare direttamente l’esenzione o le minori aliquote"
"Can" not "must", and "under their own responsibility"!

The choice oftentimes is cash now and request a refund later, or "I have to check with my superior/go to this other office/we have to verify with AdE"
For someone who doesn't live in Italy and maybe is only there for a limited time, with a zillion other things to do it could be easier to obtain a refund later.
Of course if we are talking "millions" it's another thing entirely...
 

Saturalanx

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Ragazzi, ho l'impressione che abbiate fatto un po' di confusione e siete forse andati fuori tema nel cercare di risolvere il problema del nostro amico canadese (suppongo di origini italiane) residente in Canada.
Lui chiedeva come mai i suoi BPF fossero stati tassati alla fonte (per la parte interessi maturati) al 12,5% mentre la normativa fiscale italiana, da quanto indicato sul sito delle Poste Italiane, preveda la non tassabilità per i non residenti '..ricorrendo le condizioni di legge..'??

In uno dei suoi primissimi interventi FrankB aveva colto, a mio giudizio, nel segno facendo presente che ..

.....Sometimes, bilateral agreements supersede the general law...

Poi però questa giusta intuizione non è stata più coltivata e tutta la discussione si è incentrato sull'ipotesi di richiesta di rimborso.
Molto semplicemente bastava dare uno sguardo alla Convenzione tra Italia e Canada sulle doppie imposizioni (che è legge speciale e quindi prevalente rispetto alla legge generale secondo il brocardo latino lex specialis derogat generali) per rilevare che nella fattispecie la trattenuta fiscale operata in Italia è perfettamente legittima perchè prevista dall'art. 11 di detta Convenzione che fino al 25 novembre 2011 prevedeva la possibilità di una trattenuta sugli interessi fino ad un massimo del 15% percentuale scesa al 10% dal 25 novembre 2011. La stessa Convenzione prevede all'art. 26 la procedura per la richiesta di eventuali rimborsi di ritenute operate in Italia alla fonte (il che mi fa supporre che comunque le ritenute alla fonte -quale quella in discussione- non si possono in ogni caso evitare).
 

Nicola Santilli

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Nello specifico, poiché l'utente dice che il suo diritto si sarebbe prescritto il 7 settembre 2013, è possibile presumere che l'esigibilità del rimborso decorresse dal 7 settembre 2003.

L'articolo 11, comma 3, lettera a della convenzione contro la doppia imposizione tra Italia e Canada prevede che «gli interessi provenienti da uno degli Stati contraenti sono esenti d'imposta in detto Stato se il debitore degli interessi è tale Stato contraente o una sua suddivisione politica o amministrativa o un suo ente locale».

L'emittente dei Buoni Fruttiferi Postali è la Cassa depositi e prestiti che è stata trasformata in ente di diritto privato solo il 12 dicembre 2003 (vedi: Storia della CDP) per mezzo del D.L. 269/2003 e del D.M. Economia e Finanze 5 dicembre 2003.

Pertanto se fosse applicabile il principio del pro rata temporis, come generalmente è, dovrebbe rilevare solamente il periodo di formazione degli interessi e non l'effettivo pagamento.

Quindi, se si avvalora questa ipotesi, è ipotizzabile che la ritenuta alla fonte sia stata applicata per l'assenza dell'autocertificazione: l'esito di un'istanza di rimborso potrebbe essere incerto poiché la normativa prevede espressamente che in assenza di tale autocertificazione sia applicata l'imposta sostitutiva.

L'estrema astrattezza della norma contenuta nell'articolo 26 della convenzione il quale per la restituzione dell'imposte non dovute richiede unicamente un attestato ufficiale delle condizioni per l'esenzione fa però pensare positivamente.
 
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Saturalanx

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Chapeau..per le deduzioni e la ricerca sulla trasformazione della CDP.
Rimane comunque l'art. 26 che, essendo tra l'altro riferito alla sola Italia, fa pensare che le ritenute alla fonte (istituto che evidentemente i canadesi non conoscono non avendo l'esigenza- tutta italiana- di moltiplicare i soggetti passivi delle imposte con la figura del sostituto d'imposta) in Italia non si possono evitare ma possono solo essere rimborsate ex post.
Spero che il nostro amico canadese sia in grado di capire questi ultimi post..altrimenti provvederete voi ad una sintetica traduzione..se dovessi farlo io avrei bisogno di qualche giorno :wall::wall: